Howard: I suppose the first thing we should do is lay the groundwork. This is about FORGOTTEN fantasy swords, people—that doesn’t necessarily mean so obscure that no one’s ever heard of them, and it also doesn’t mean every sword-wielding character ever created. I’m thinking we should focus on neglected characters that ought to get discussed, celebrated, or read more often. Especially read more.
Todd: S’right.
Howard: I also think we ought to avoid characters who aren’t forgotten. Conan, say.
Todd: Dammit, there’s too many rules already. Let’s just get started.
Howard: All right then, I’ll cheat and nominate a character who’s not even technically a fantasy character. The trick is that he was created by Harold Lamb, who had a huge influence on sword-and-sorcery prior to its invention by Robert E. Howard, creator of the aforementioned Conan. Howard named Harold Lamb as a favorite author, and it’s easy to see why. His character’s adventures have almost all the same characteristics as a sword-and-sorcery tale.
Todd: Jesus, Jones. We’re barely 200 words in, and you’re on about Lamb already? Okay, fine. Lemme reeeeaach across my desk here, grab my copy of Wolf of the Steppes, the first volume of The Complete Cossack Adventures, written by Harold Lamb and edited by—hey, would you look at that! Howard Andrew Jones!—and settle in. Because we’re talking about Khlit the Odyssean Cossack here, right?
Howard: You got it. And you’re just mad you didn’t think of him first.
Todd: Maybe. But I’ll give you this—Khlit the Cossack is an excellent choice. For starters, he aces the prime requisite of a truly great fantasy swordsman: the man finds himself in some absolutely epic battles.
Howard: I wouldn’t have spent years trying to get just ANYONE back into print. Lamb was a master. I keep trying to tell anyone who loves adventure fantasy that they need to read his work, and I feel like I’m shouting into the wind. These are great stories, full of epic adventures that are only one step removed from sword-and-sorcery. Almost everything you find in sword-and-sorcery is in one of Khlit the Cossack’s adventures!
Todd: And Khlit has a magic sword! Well, about as magical as you can get in a pulp story with no actual magic in it. Which is actually pretty magical, by most standards. The sword was handed down through the generations from Khlit’s ancestor, a great Khan of the Kallmark Tatars and descendant of Genghis Khan. That’s some serious sword juju right there.
Howard: I’m curious to hear what you think of “The Mighty Manslayer,” since you recently read it for the first time and come to it with fresh eyes.
Todd: I’m pleased you mentioned that one, since it’s probably my favorite. It’s a novella that originally appeared in the pulp magazine Adventure in 1918. In many ways it reads like the original prototype for the sword-and-sorcery epic. Khlit is hired by an enigmatic merchant for a dangerous expedition across a vast and dangerous desert, in search of the lost tomb of none other than Genghis Khan himself—and the unfathomable riches that lie within. To get there, Khlit has to contend with evil sorcerers, spies, an invading army, and clever—and very deadly—traps in the tomb itself. There are twists and turns, reversals and betrayals, and the story ends with a desperate battle against a Chinese army, with Khlit facing overwhelming odds. Through it all Khlit proves himself an unsurpassed swordsman, of course, but he also demonstrates that much rarer quality that all the men and women on our list share. They possess a level of daring, courage, and audacity that takes our breath away, and fires the imagination of the reader. In the closing pages of “The Mighty Manslayer” Khlit dares things I don’t think I’ve seen any other character attempt. It makes for riveting reading.
Howard: I’m glad you dig “The Mighty Manslayer,” but you need to advance further into his canon, because there are other stories that are at least as good. There are 18 stories featuring Khlit (and he is briefly mentioned in two others). It’s astonishing to see how quickly Lamb became good at crafting his fiction: the first, short Cossack tale was tentative, the second was pretty good, the third better still, and then he really hit his stride. He wrote a whole slew of the best ones back to back, one after the other, as Khlit slowly winds his way east. Each stands alone, but each builds upon its predecessors. But hey, maybe that’s enough about this guy; I think there was a great female warrior and swordsperson you wanted to discuss next!
Todd: Yes there is: Jirel of Joiry, one of the first great sword-and-sorcery heroes—in fact, I would argue one of the greatest. She was created by the masterful pulp writer C.L Moore, who also created the popular space rogue Northwest Smith, and authored numerous well loved science fiction pulp tales, including “No Woman Born,” and “Vintage Season,” that last one with her husband, Henry Kuttner.
Howard: Kuttner and Moore. Two great talents. Once they started writing together do you know that one would simply get up from the typewriter to take a break and the other one could sit down and take over? That’s how well their voices and styles blended.
Todd: When I’m writing and I take a break, my wife sometimes sits down and finishes my coffee. That’s how good a blend it is.
Howard: …Anyway, the first Jirel story pre-dates their collaboration. There’s a short series of them, but to my mind the first one, “Black God’s Kiss,” is the best and strongest.
Todd: She’s not as forgotten as Khlit, but Jirel isn’t as well remembered as she used to be. In fact, if Netflix had been around in the 50s (and how cool would THAT have been, with bike messengers delivering these giant movie reels to subscribers every week?), Jirel of Joiry would have been a shoe-in for a sumptuous Netflix mini-series. Fans would have loved it.
Howard: Man, that WOULD have been cool. Can you imagine the black-and-white serials Netflix would’ve made in the 1930s?
Todd: I imagine it every day, my friend. “Black God’s Kiss” is one of the early classics of sword-and-sorcery, originally published in the October 1934 issue of Weird Tales. It’s a crazy tale, really. Jirel’s fortress in medieval France falls to the tall and handsome conqueror Guillaume, and when he unmasks its lord—and greatest defender—Jirel, and discovers she is a woman, he forces a kiss on her. Enraged, Jirel plots her escape. But not from the castle…instead, she takes a secret tunnel deep in the dungeons to a vast and strange demon-filed realm. There she hopes to find a dark weapon she can use to wreak terrible revenge on Guillaume, even though she knows the fate of all those who traffic with demons. What she finds is terrible indeed, and she gets her revenge, of a sort. And a lesson in the cost of dealing with dark forces.
Howard: Moore was phenomenal with both pacing AND atmosphere. I keep comparing her to William Hope Hodgson, because both can evoke suspense in the same way with weird dreamy imagery, but the older I get, the more obscure both authors become, so I’m not sure that comparison actually helps anyone…
Todd: Why does Jirel belong on this list? She’s absolutely lethal with a blade, of course, but I don’t think that’s her defining virtue. When I think of Jirel of Joiry, I think of courage and grit. And she’s a tragic figure, like many of the great S&S heroes.
Howard: I wouldn’t say that she’s completely tragic, but she certainly experiences tragedy.
Todd: Oh, come on! [Spoiler alert – if you don’t want to know the ending of “Black God’s Kiss,” skip to the end of the paragraph.] It’s only when Jirel engineers Guillaume’s gruesome end that she realizes the overpowering emotion she felt wasn’t hatred at all, but deeply repressed desire. She’s called up dark forces that traffic only in tragedy, and destroyed the only man she’s ever loved. Setting aside how deeply messed up that is [Spoiler alert 2 – IT’S DEEPLY MESSED UP], I still think it qualifies as tragic.
Howard: In any case, Moore’s Jirel of Joiry tales are definitely worth a read, so long as you keep in mind a caveat: I think it’s generally best not to read a bunch of stories about one character all in a row, because you might tire of the writer’s style or thematic preferences, which could begin to feel repetitive. In the case of the Khlit the Cossack stories I think you’d be okay, because they read much more like an episodic TV series. For Jirel, though, because there’s a sameness in plotting and repeated themes, read back-to-back the greatness of the fiction might not be apparent.
Todd: Okay, time for a public service announcement. The five Jirel stories, except for “Quest of the Starstone,” appear in the collection Jirel of Joiry (1969), and in the Gollancz Fantasy Masterworks compendium Black Gods and Scarlet Dreams (2002). All six were gathered in Black God’s Kiss (2007), from Paizo Publishing‘s fine Planet Stories imprint.
Harold Lamb’s Khlit the Cossack tales were collected in four volumes from Bison Books, all edited by the illustrious Howard Andrew Jones: Wolf of the Steppes, Warriors of the Steppes, Riders of the Steppes, and Swords of the Steppes. All are still in print, more than a decade after they first appeared. I think this Lamb guy might be popular some day.
Back to you for our next subject, Mr. Jones.
Howard: I’ve already cheated once, so I’m going to do it again and mention two heroes in the place of one: Benedict and Corwin of Amber. When I was in high school, all my spec fic reader friends had read a ton of Zelazny, but I find, more and more, that modern readers only know him by reputation. And that’s a shame. Between Leiber’s Swords Against Death (the first Lankhmar short story collection I read) and Zelazny’s first Chronicles of Amber series (there was a later, sequel series I never liked as well) the doors of my junior high school imagination got blown right off the hinges. I see Lankhmar’s Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser discussed a lot, but not so much Corwin and Benedict.
Todd: I’ve kinda lost track of how many heroes you’re talking about here. It’s supposed to be one, you say it’s two, but it sorta seems like four. Damn, Jones. When you cheat, you don’t kid around.
Howard: Benedict, of course, is the oldest surviving Amberite. And that means he’s at LEAST centuries old. For kicks, he likes to go to alternate realities (shadows) and watch the same battle unfold with minute differences. Not only is he a master tactician and strategist, he’s probably the finest blade amongst a rather sword-happy collection of brothers and sisters.
Todd: I really like this choice (we’ve finally settled on one here, right?) because Benedict is a fine example of a kind of Great Swordsman we haven’t touched on yet: the brilliant tactician. Khlit is a master with a blade, and Jirel exhibits unearthly courage, but Benedict, the eldest and most capable of the heirs to the throne of Amber, is an unmatched master of weapons and a coldly calculating student of all kinds of warfare.
Howard: No, no, I actually mean both brothers should count, here. Benedict and Corwin.
Todd: Dammit, Jones.
Howard: Benedict is the finest tactician and strategist in The Chronicles of Amber, but he’s removed himself from the struggle for the throne. That leaves Corwin to prove himself against his other scheming and lethally dangerous brothers, which he does quite nicely. And because this is Zelazny, he accomplishes it in surprising and original ways across the first five-book saga. Corwin does not begin the book a legendary figure the way Benedict does, but he earns his place the old-fashioned way: through skill and guile.
Todd: And a whole lot of fancy swordplay. I’ll give him that.
Howard: Right.
Todd: Okay, my turn again. I’ve lost count of how many swordspeople we’ve covered in our Top Five so far. Six? Nine?
Howard: Let’s say three.
Todd: Fine. For number four, I’m going to cheat a bit too. The fellow I have in mind is one of the greatest literary swordsmen ever created, and he made a huge splash when he arrived in the mid-‘90s. But he’s not really a fantasy character. He’s from a science fiction novel.
Howard: Hmm. I can think of a couple of possibilities.
Todd: The one I’m thinking of is Hiro Protagonist, the supremely gifted swordsman of Neal Stephenson’s 1992 breakout novel Snow Crash.
Howard: Hiro Protagonist? Seriously? That’s his name?
Todd: It’s sort of an in-joke. There’s humor—a LOT of humor—in Snow Crash, and in fact it’s the funniest genre novel I’ve ever read. And I’ve read Terry Pratchett.
Howard: Hiro. Protagonist.
Todd: Let it go.
Howard: You can’t just start throwing cyberpunk novels on the list. If you’d let me make up some rules before we got started, that definitely would have been one of them. This is supposed to be The Greatest Fantasy Swordsmen.
Todd: Snow Crash IS fantasy. Well, the half that occurs in virtual reality is. Much of the book takes place in 21st-century L.A. after an economic collapse. But the rest occurs in the Metaverse, a virtual reality setting for which Hiro wrote much of the underlying code, and where he is a swordsman supreme.
And this is why I think Hiro deserves a place on the list. Whereas old-school swordsmen like Jirel and Corwyn earned their place on our list with old-school virtues, Hiro belongs on it for a very 21st-century reason: he cheats. Or rather, he wins the game because he CREATED the game. He becomes a modern hero not merely through raw swordcraft—skills that are purely physical—but because of his vision and creativity. He is a supreme swordsman because he passionately believes (like everyone else on our list) that the art of the sword is worth studying, and he adds code to the Metaverse to make it possible. He literally wills the art into existence in the Metaverse, and becomes its greatest practitioner in the process. He is the Swordsman Hacker.
Howard: Okay, that’s pretty cool. I’ll allow it.
Todd: Public service announcement time again… Roger Zelazny’s full Chronicles of Amber series is available in a humungous one-volume paperback edition, The Great Book of Amber, from Harper Voyager, and Neil Stephenson’s Snow Crash is still in print from Del Rey.
Your turn again, Mr. Jones.
Howard: All right, since we’ve both been cheating I’m going to finish with another cheat. Leigh Brackett’s Eric John Stark….
Todd: Man, you really are cheating. How can Stark be make a list of Top Fantasy Swordsmen when he doesn’t even use a SWORD?
Howard: Oh, he uses a sword plenty of times. I don’t know that Brackett ever singles Stark out as a fantastic swordsman, but he’s certainly a fantastic warrior. And my God, but the stories that Brackett conjures. As her future husband, the late, great, Edmund Hamilton, said when he first saw her writing: “That woman can write!” Headlong pace that just drips with atmosphere and pulls you in and envelops you. Han Solo? Malcolm Reynolds? Those guys? Heck, Brackett was writing about characters like that decades before those two ever appeared on celluloid. Drifters and warriors and survivors just scraping by on the edges of their solar system’s or galaxy’s society , and constantly involved in sweeping adventures. There’s a reason George Lucas approached Brackett to write the script for The Empire Strikes Back, and there’s a reason I number her as one of my three most favorite writers.
Todd: Okay, fine. I have a soft spot for Stark anyway, ’cause he had such rousing adventures. If we can give Jirel points for courage and grit, we can give Stark the edge for sheer entertainment value. Besides, I keep seeing David Gemmell’s Druss the Legend—who’s most definitely NOT forgotten, thank you very much—put forth as one of the undisputed greatest swordsmen in fantasy in internet debates, deservedly so in my opinion. And that guy uses an AXE, for crying out loud. So I call Stark a swordsman, and I’ll sleep just fine at night.
While we’re on the topic, you’re absolutely right about Brackett; she was one of the undisputed masters of the pulp adventure, and the Stark tales are some of her most enduring work. They are in print today from multiple publishers, including Paizo and Phoenix Pick.
I think that wraps up our list. Before we close, just for fun, I have one last question for you: If you had to go into battle on the plains of Mordor, what fantasy swordsman, forgotten or nay, would you want at your side? Elric? Conan? Drizzt Do’Urden?
I’ll go first. For his sheer style and dazzling ability to think on his feet, I think I’d choose the Dread Pirate Roberts, otherwise known as Westley. Your choice?
Howard: At my side? If I want to win? No question. Conan of Cimmeria. He may lose a battle, sometimes, but he never loses the war. He is always triumphant in the end. I’d like to be one of his sidekicks who *doesn’t* perish, though…
Photo: Ricardo Cruz [via Unsplash]
Howard Andrew Jones’ novel Upon the Flight of the Queen, the second book in the Ring-Sworn Trilogy, will be published by St. Martin’s Press in November.
Todd McAulty’s first novel The Robots of Gotham was published by John Joseph Adams Books in June of last year.
4/5 on my shelves. I approve this list!
From my Terry Brooks fandom days, Garret Jax springs to mind. But then so does the general problem that there are multiple instances of swordsmen in the fantasy genre presented as the best-that-ever-was, invincible by any foe, going to their grave undefeated. It is one of the genre’s clichés, and honestly I like to see them lose sometimes. I’m most interested in anyone’s examples where the cliché is defied in some way. Although examples that defined the cliché in the first place (as did some cited by this article) are good to have too.
How about Ricardon from the Gandalara Cycle, wielding one of the only two steel blades in a Bronze Age society? Not your typical grunt, I’ll grant you, but the swords certainly featured prominently.
I’m not sure whether or not he meets your “forgotten’ status, but for me, I’d have to add Tarl Cabot from the Gor series. Definitely not PC, so he wouldn’t be much approved by today’s crowd, but he was the proto-swordsman for me.
As for who to take into Mordor, put me down for Lan Mandragoran. Might be my favorite fantasy swordsman. Not necessarily because of his swordsmanship, but more because he’s just an all around badass.
Fritz Lieber’s Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser.
And because this is Zelazny, he accomplishes it in surprising and original ways across the first five-book saga. Corwin does not begin the book a legendary figure the way Benedict does, but he earns his place the old-fashioned way: through skill and guile.
Todd: And a whole lot of fancy swordplay. I’ll give him that.
And while Corwin cheats (because CORWIN), he does beat Benedict in a swordfight.
Some of the best are listed here!
Clearly Muffy Birnbaum is entirely forgotten…
Brak the Barbarian. Totally a Conan-clone, but managed a series of books that no one ever seems to mention. And always seems to acquire a broad sword (always specifically a broad sword) wherever he escapes imprisonment *again*.
Does Tarma from Mercedes Lackey’s Oath books count as forgotten? I mean, not by the standards of the OP necessarily, which is a fairly deep dive but for lay people.
@1/SchuylerH – That’s pretty good coverage! Who’s missing?
Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser are certainly great, but I don’t think they are any more forgotten than Elric. We were really going for seldom discussed.
Brak is seldom discussed, it’s true. I’m not sure I found him as influential as the other characters we cited, although I do remember enjoying a Brak short story collection.
There were many more we wanted to add, but we tried to keep it short. We cheated and mentioned more characters already even than we said we would!
Hooray for Corwin and Benedict but if you are going to Amber out you will recall that Corwin admitted that his brother Eric was better than he. “Of all my relations I like sex best and Eric least.”
Re: Conan. Interesting that he is mentioned on a literary blog. I don’t think it actually happened but I imagine it playing out this way: “You can look at funny marks on paper and find meaning in them? Die, foul sorcerer!”
@2/cecrow – Garet Jax is a good choice. If I remember correctly he died defeating a Jachyra, who were supposedly only killable by magic. Certainly an epic end, anyway.
It’s arguable whether he’s forgotten, though.
> There are multiple instances of swordsmen in the fantasy genre presented as
> the best-that-ever-was, invincible by any foe, going to their grave undefeated.
> It is one of the genre’s clichés, and honestly I like to see them lose sometimes.
Oh, for sure. Science Fiction has the burden of making future science believable; epic fantasy has the burden that you can’t make such grandiose statements without making the reader believe them. That means PROVING that your character is the best. And that’s a true art. When it’s done well, it can be vastly entertaining.
Goldry Bluszco, and Brandoch Daha, from E.R. Eddison’s The Worm Ouroboros, come to my mind.
@8/Tim
Heh. Well, I remember her, but I guess I had another qualifier I didn’t mention, and that’s that I was thinking of straight-up adventure and hadn’t really considered humor or satire. It’s been decades, though, so maybe her adventures were more serious than I recall.
Great list, and someday I will read Snow Crash and someday I will read more Brackett, including the Eric John Stark books.
Not forgotten, precisely, but getting less attention these days than I think they deserve:
C.J. Cherryh’s Morgaine (whose sword, Changeling, has an interdimensional Gate set at its tip)
Jennifer Roberson’s Del & Tiger (about whom I hope we’re going to get an eighth book).
@3/RJStanford – Ricardon from the Gandalara Cycle is a fine choice! There were seven volumes in the series, co-written by Randall Garrett and his wife Vicki Ann Heydron (although, truthfully, since Garrett was in a coma for the last eight years of his life, it’s likely Heydron wrote most fo the series solo.)
In any event, Ricardon is a daring and resourceful hero, and he’s forgotten today. The books have been out of print since Bantam Spectra published them in the late 80s. I wish modern readers had a way to find them, outside of used bookstores.
@15 if you are going to cite Goldry and Brandoch, you have to also list the the greatest swordsman in the world (until Daha took him down): Gorice X of Witchland!
Shonsu/Wallie Smith from Dave Duncan’s Seventh Sword series?
Also, I am totally down with the Gandalara Cycle, I may have to go pull it off the shelf as I had almost forgotten how much I loved that series.
@4/Trampiere – Whew, it’s been a while since I’ve thought about Tarl Cabot of Gor. I only read the first book, so I missed out on most of his adventures. And yeah, he’s certainly forgotten anyway.
And taking Lan Mandragoran, the uncrowned king of A Wheel of Time, into Mordor with you? Bold choice. I respect it.
@11: Harold Lamb.
@6/Paul Weimer – You’re right, Corwin does defeat Benedict in a swordfight. I’m sure Howard remembered that (he’s the AMBER expert), but I forgot!
@8/Tim –
“Clearly Muffy Birnbaum is entirely forgotten…”
Not by me! George Alec Effinger’s heroic (?) swordswoman only appeared in a few short stories in the 80s and 90s, all spoofing different settings as she traipsed over Burrough’s Mars, Sherwood Forest, Pellucidar, Robert Adam’s Horseclans, and many others. Those tales were a lot of fun, and if Effinger hadn’t died young of multiple stomach ailments I believe they would still be in print today.
@10/Noblehunter –
“Does Tarma from Mercedes Lackey’s Oath books count as forgotten?”
Let me check with the judges…. looks like the OATHBOUND books are are still in print (even the first two, which came out in the 80s!!), but anything published over 30 years ago is automatically grandfathered in.
I haven’t read them. Anyone else out there willing to vouch for Tarma??
@25 They recently came out on audiobook, too! Wait, if someone else remembers her does that count for or against?
I haven’t read them in depressingly close to 30 years, but yes, I’ll vouch for Tarma.
I will definitely vouch for Tarma as well.
As for who to take with me to Mordor, I do like the idea of Lan. However, I would choose Rand al’Thor, but after Memory of Light.
Benedict and Corwin? Forgotten?
You must not frequent the same circles I do.
Is there an in-joke I’m missing in how you inconsistently misspell Jirel as Joril? Maybe that happened in some published editions but not others?
Tarma’s a hella sword-slinger, and she definitely belongs on a list of the greats.
Not sure I’d count her as forgotten, though – so mixed vouch?
@29/Pufnstuf – I give my new series thumbnail description: “it’s kind of like a cross between The Three Musketeers and The Chronicles of Amber,” and there is fair amount of time when 20 somethings and younger either haven’t heard of Zelazny, or have heard of the Chronicles but not read them. Makes me sad, it does.
@13/Dr. Thanatos – actually, by the time he becomes king, Conan can speak and write a number of languages, so I suppose the response might depend upon what year of his life it comes from. That said, he’s always curious about civilization and observes w interest, unless someone is rude to him.
@15 @19 Does Tor.com give prizes like the old Marvel no-prize? Because working in mention of The Worm Ouroboros is both obscure AND awesome
@15/@19 — Yeah, what Howard said. The Worm Ouroboros was first published in 1922 — 97 years ago! You definitely get both get special FORGOTTEN FANTASY badges. Who says fantasy fans have short memories?
@30/ Carl — Holy cow, you’re absolutely right. Not only did I manage to turn JIREL into JORIL halfway through the essay, at one point I somehow managed to call her both names IN THE SAME SENTENCE.
This is on me. I notice Howard managed to keep her name straight, at least. I blame him anyway. He’s supposed to keep me from embarrassing myself in public.
@30: Fixed, with apologies from the editor to Jirel, Todd, and Howard :)
@30 Don’t be too hard on Todd. He gets his own name wrong a lot of the time. And I should have made a final pass after Todd or John or Alfred or whatever his name really is told me it was ready. I was eating pretzels or something and told him to just send it in.
@37 — Thanks to the Tor moderator for lickety-split correcting of my mistakes!
@38 — At least you could have saved me some pretzels.
I’ll second Goldry Bluszco and Brandoch Daha; among the finest swordsmen of all time.
You mentioned Benedict and Corwin. How come you didn’t talk about Zelazny’s earlier fantasy hero, Dilvish the Damned? You gotta love a guy who always lands on his feet. Literally. Elf boots.
I dearly love Eric John Stark. His stories are great adventures, but I’m not certain I’d list him as a great swordsman. I’d say he was more an interplanetary Tarzan that a John Carter. But, hey, as long as he’s on your list.
Tarma and Kethry are my most favorite S&S team. Smart, wise, kind and above all capable. Tarma isn’t a warrior woman. She’s a warrior who happens to be a woman (It’s a intricate difference, but an important one, IMO). Would definitely take Tarma into Mordor.
Of older vintage, let us also not forget Welleran, Soorenard, Mommolek, Rollory, Akanax, and young Iraine.
@17/hoopmanjh — Hey Joe! Great to see some familiar faces here from Black Gate.
C.J. Cherryh’s Morgaine — Nice addition! I haven’t read the Morgaine books, and I didn’t know that bit about an interdimensional Gate in the tip of her sword.
Jennifer Roberson’s Del & Tiger — Hear! Hear! Big Del & Tiger fan from way back. And I didn’t know there was an 8th book on the way. But this list is about individual swordsmen, not teams…. which one would you pick in a pinch?
@42 “The Sword of Welleran” is a fave of mine, although (and this may be blasphemy) I think I actually prefer the Lin Carter homage to it, “Zingazar.” I’ve written about my love for that forgotten gem at length. Todd could back me up except I think he has ignored me every time I’ve told him to read “Zingazar” for years.
@20/Prezimonto – “Shonsu/Wallie Smith from Dave Duncan’s Seventh Sword series?”
I’m a big Dave Duncan fan, but I have to plead ignorance here. Any other votes for Smith/Seventh Sword?
@43 — If I had to pick just one … Hmmm … Probably Del, although you really couldn’t go wrong in either case.
I’m not sure what the status is on the eighth book (whether it’s in progress or just being anticipated), but I know Jennifer Roberson has at least mentioned it a few times, so for now I’m just being patient.
@44 — I’ll have to reread Zingazar one of these days. Conveniently, the Sword & Sorcery group on Goodreads is having Lin Carter as one of the upcoming group reads, so I’ll just have to select the proper anthology …
@40/Pecooper – probably because I read Dilvishonce, and I read and re-read the original Amber series the way a lot of people re-read Tolkien. Amber and Leiber’s Swords Against Death were the first two fantasies that blew the doors off my imagination, and they had a lasting impact upon me. I liked Dilvish, but I found it later. I found Amber in junior high and read it again and again for the next ten years.
@26/noblehunter — “Wait, if someone else remembers her does that count for or against?”
LOL. Fair question! More votes means Tamra is less forgotten, but more respected. That’s an upvote in my book.
Speaking of which…
@27/hoopmanjh — “I’ll vouch for Tarma.”
@28/caddan — “I will definitely vouch for Tarma as well.”
@31/tbutler — “Tarma’s a hella sword-slinger, and she definitely belongs on a list of the greats.”
@41/sarrow — “Tarma and Kethry are my most favorite S&S team.”
Looks like a resounding vote of confidence to me. Jones, take a note. We welcome Tarma to the list.
@47 Does Zelazny’s Jack of Shadows do much sword-swinging?
@49 wow— been too long. I recall that was more about magic using, but it’s been 30 years… Mybe Todd recalls.
I don’t know if they count as forgotten but I would vote for Owen Deathstalker and Hazel D’Arc from the Deathstalker series.
@Trampiere no. 4: I’m not at the computer with the links, so I can’t post them here, but–
“Not PC” is not exactly the term. Somebody out there in Internet Land has illustrated the books exactly as described by Norman. Tarl turns out to be the one lithe and shortish fellow (except for that more or less openly gay man who dies) in a world of big burly hairy men, who simply must manhandle him, hug him, and/or get him wet with various fluids. Also, the macguffin they’re fighting over in the first story? It’s literally found at the tip of a cylindrical tower with a mushroom-shaped top…Meanwhile, the women are treated like bad dogs because they express interest in/get touched by a man’s penis, perfunctorily toused, and then conveniently vanished so that there can be more burly guy huggin’. Even if Tarl, the woman, and the burly guy are in a tent in a barren wasteland.
Norman had some tightly packed Stuff in his closet, is what I’m saying.
@42/hoopmanjh — “let us also not forget Welleran, Soorenard, Mommolek, Rollory, Akanax, and young Iraine.”
I had to do a Google search to figure out what the heck you were talking about.
They’re characters from THE SWORD OF WELLERAN, by Lord Dunsany, published in 1908, which I probably should have realized. I’m sure Howard did (he probably read it by accident, while preparing another book on Harold Lamb). But yeah, we’re deep into the Forgotten end of the pool now.
@49 and @50 — “I recall that was more about magic using, but it’s been 30 years… Mybe Todd recalls.
I re-read Zelazny’s JACK OF SHADOWS just a few years ago. What I remember most about the re-reading is that I used to view Jack as the hero, but when I read it as an adult, he’s clearly the villain. He realizes that at the very end, and makes a desperate attempt to undo the mess he’s made of things once he found The Key That Was Lost. He’s falling to his death at the end, and we never know if his friend Morningstar catches him or not.
And yes, he’s a Swordsman. Far too flawed in character to be considered one of the greats however, in my opinion.
@35: Who was it who said speculative fiction doesn’t have an expiry date, it has a half-life? I was wondering whether it was something Stephen King said but I can’t find the source.
@39: Geez, Todd, the way you keep showing pictures of donuts at Black Gate HQ and then not sharing them with me, well — I can’t speak for Howard, but as for me, you’ll have to defeat me in a sword battle (my champion will be Richard St. Vier, speaking of great sworsdmen!) to claim a pretzel from me.
And Dunsany’s best sword is surely Sacnoth, wielded by Leothric.
@54 — That’s fair; yes, Jack is something of a monster, arguably in multiple senses of the term. Still possibly my favorite non-Amber Zelazny, though.
Okay, I’ll throw these two out for consideration:
Elric and Turin. Both had nasty black swords that came back to bite them in the end (but Turin came first, Moorcock…)
How about Judge Pursuivant and John Thunstone from Manly Wade Wellman’s work? That sword-cane did for a lot of occult creatures.
@8, Yep, I love Muffy Birnbaum!
Great article with lovely texts to check out!
As for a swordsman to take to Mordor, I’m going with the lone wolf himself, Ogami Itto. With baby cart, of course.
I must now learn more about Ms. Birnbaum. However my local library and book stores do not seem to have this book. Is it available on line?
I guess Uther Doul probably isn’t “forgotten”, exactly, but he doesn’t seem to be mentioned so often anymore.
@61 I am traveling right now so can’t refer to my bookshelf. But I seem to recall that I first saw the character in 70s fantasy anthologies.
@58, Don’t get me started on Turin Turambar, goth emo, drama queen of Middle Earth.
@10 and @25 Tarma was the first to come to my mind as well! Probably a factor of teens and twenties spent hooked on Sword and Sorceress anthologies, but she’s the one I’d want by my side in a tight spot! Smart and loyal and immensely skilled and on good terms with a Goddess . . .
@65 not to mention immune to harmful magic thanks to Need. At least, if Kethry side by side with her.
Ahem. Might I humbly draw your attention to simply the greatest sword-wielder ever to breathe? Meowara Tomocato.
Drizzt Do’Urden – most definitely who I would take into Mordor
mndrew @67, Yes, excellent suggestion! However, if you will forgive the nit picking, I must correct your spelling. That mighty feline’s name is “Miaowara Tomokato”.
Well, if we’re going to cheat with heroic non-swordsmen swordsmen, I will mention Brinn of the Haruchai, who fought an unarmed duel to the death to become Ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenal, the Guardian of the One Tree (Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant).
But to go into Mordor, well there is no other choice but Groo The Wanderer. Groo would do what Groo does best!…Or did I err?
I’ll say yes to the Seventh Sword original trilogy. It was one of my favorite Duncan books/series when I was reading him.
The much-later-written fourth book was not nearly as good, I didn’t think. I was very disappointed with it honestly.
I wonder if Morrolan from the Vlad Taltos series qualifies? He’s the next one I think of, anyway.
@61 There’s plenty of copies available from Abebooks, though it doesn’t seem to be available in e-format.
The collection is: Maureen Birnbaum: Barbarian Swordsperson: The Complete Stories by George Alec Effinger
While I have read Harold Lamb, I don’t think I’ve encountered that particular character. All the others are quite familiar to me. One of my favorite swordfights in all of literature is the battle on the steps that takes place at the end of Nine Princes in Amber.
Coincidentally, I was planning to review the Ace anthology that collected the Jirel of Joiry tales in the Front Lines and Frontiers column (https://www.tor.com/tag/front-lines-and-frontiers/) about three weeks from now (and I visited that Outlaw of Mars volume in a past column).
If historical fiction characters can slip under the radar, I’ll put in a good word for Pan Michael Wołodyjowski (or Volodyovski, depending on how Anglicized the translation is), probably the finest swordsman of Henryk Sienkiewicz’s Trilogy, set in 17th century Poland.
@74 I’ve wanted to read his work for ages. Apparently Harold Lamb was an admirer of the man’s work
Jack of Shadows was more of a stealthy assassin than a swordsman, as I recall. Benedict, Corwin and Eric of Amber are all indeed worthy of consideration, but did anyone remember Bleys? He deserves a shout out too.
Without Stormbringer, Elric would be too feeble to even register.
That much-ballyhooed Mary Sue Drizzt do’Urden would be worse than useless in a reality whose physics less resembled those of RPGs and video games.
Did anyone mention Inigo Montoya? The Princess Bride, the novel, left me with impression that Inigo was a better swordsman than Westley/Dread Pirate Roberts (or anyone else). Westley managed to defeat Inigo–barely!–only because he was “juiced” by the power of True Love. Otherwise, Inigo wins that duel 10 out of 10 times. (One of the reasons I dislike the overrated movie is its implication that Westley defeats Inigo easily, deflating the mystique of the best character of the whole story.)
(What’s wrong with me that I can’t resist opining in an online discussion about imaginary swordsmen?)
@74/75 — I haven’t read the books (although they’re on my Kindle), but I do recommend the film adaptations, beginning with With Fire and Sword.
Ronin from “The Sunset Warrior” books by Eric Van Lustbader.
@77 I like the film of With Fire And Sword is pretty well; the other two a little less so. For the books, I found the W. S. Kuniczak translation to be pretty readable, but I can’t vouch for earlier ones.
How about Cyrano de Bergerac? According to Rostand, Cyrano was a traveler from the moon.
Sounds like a Science Fiction swordsman.
The swordsman Oscar fought at the climax of Glory Road was a Cyrano clone.
Cyrano is a Science Fiction swordsman squared.
Khlit the Cossack in “The Mighty Manslayer”… Is that as bad an unintended or unfortunate naming as Harry Hole in Jo Nesbo’s books?
How much of an influence, if any, did Jirel have on Red Sonja?
@81 I think that the character predates the slang term. I do wish that the name was different, because it, unfortunately, is a mild barrier to entry to some great stories.
As for Jirel and Sonja, the latter is based off of a character Red Sonya, From Robert E. Howard’s excellent historical, “The Shadow of the Vulture.” I’m away from home and it’s difficult to double check dates right now, but C.L. Moore and REH did like each other’s work and exchange some letters, so it’s possible they influenced each other — although it’s more likely Jirel had an echo in Howard’s Dark Agnes character Red Sonya, while a red-headed warrior woman, was not a chainmail bikini wearer.
You knew people were gonna kvetch that some or all of these aren’t obscure and I see you tried to head that off at the pass, but nevertheless: Except for the Lamb (and thank you for the recommendation) they ain’t obscure.
Obscure is like John Jakes’ Brak the Barbarian before Jakes hit it big with historical novels.
@52. Jenny: John Norman is the pen name of John Frederick Lange Jr., a former philosophy professor at Queens College and a men’s rights advocate, apparently married with 3 children.
John Norman
I read the first ten or so of his books (published in the 60s and 70s) when I was a teenager and didn’t get whatever homoerotic subtext was there. Probably below my radar. There was a helluvalot of BDSM, male dominance, and female submission in the form of institutional slavery. The concept of a Counter-Earth was interesting. Tarns were cool. And there was even a whole novel with a female protagonist, who of course becomes a slave-girl. Don’t remember how that one ended, if she escapes back to Earth.
But yeah, not sure how much can be salvaged from the series these days. There’s 35 of them (!), with one published just this year. Guess somebody’s still buying them.
Cerebus the Aardvark.
I know, I know, it’s technically a comic book BUT if you have actually read the series, some of it does pass as a novel.
Great post, and great discussion.
I’d suggest Vance’s Cugel the Clever. I like his motto (“I prefer to run, but I will fight if I must”), and maybe Harold Shea (from Pratt & de Camp’s The Incompleat Enchanter etc) or Prosper Nash (from de Camp’s solo novel Solomon’s Stone). They’re always talking their way into situations they have to fight their way out of, and vice versa.
Russ’ Alyx the Adventurer deserves a mention, too. She has a pretty varied career: thief, assassin, pirate, tour-guide in space.
Drat.
Clearly my favorite swordswingers are not NEARLY obscure enough, because they’ve all been mentioned already (Roberson’s Del– and I’d definitely choose Del, as Tiger’s going the spellcaster route), Koike’s Ogami Itto, Kushner’s Richard St. Vier, and Brust’s Morrolan– whom I’m not sure is obscure enough, since the Vlad Taltos books are not only still in print but spinoffs are still being written. (speaking of, I’d totally bring Vlad with me to Mordor. He’s sarcastic (the perfect foil to all that epicness), he’s an amazing cook, and tho’ he’s not as good as Morollan with a blade, he’s so inventive that it’d be a delight to watch him end everything that attempted to annoy him.)
The primary reason I’m commenting, though, is for a quick (well, semi-quick) public library PSA. Even if your local library doesn’t have some of the books mentioned here, it has a carefully-hidden superpower called L-Spac– oh, wait, silly me, wrong word. Ha ha, of COURSE L-Space isn’t ACTUALLY real! (Quietly places a banana of apology on her bookshelf for nearly spilling the secret of the ages on a public forum, and watches as a hairy orange hand emerges, shakes a finger, grasps the banana, and pulls it back into the dark depths of the shelf.)
I meant, of course, interlibrary loan (ILL for short). If you bring your home library’s reference librarians the author, title, and (preferably) ISBN/EAN of the book you’re looking for, they can probably find a public or academic library in the U.S. willing to loan them a copy for you through WorldCat. If you print out the first page or two of the WorldCat record (whatever you need to get to the “details” part), your local librarian should find it quite useful. (It does cost them money to do this, so some public libraries may charge you a small fee for the service, or limit how many titles you can request per month / quarter / year.)
@3/RJStanford & @18/Todd McAulty: Garrett & Heydron’s entire Gandalara Cycle is indeed available through WorldCat. 6 of the 7 books (all but the last) are available in a two-vol. omnibus called The Gandalara Cycle. You can also get them individually: 1- The Steel of Raithskar, 2- The Glass of Dyskornis, 3- The Bronze of Eddarta, 4- The Well of Darkness, 5- The Search for Ka, 6- Return to Eddarta, and 7- The River Wall.
@61/Dr. Thanatos: Muffy’s available through ILL, too. The edition of Effinger’s collected stories that was mentioned above, Maureen Birnbaum, Barbarian Swordsperson, is also in WorldCat. :)
If you really really must have them for your very own, I’ll point out that the upper right corner of the WorldCat record has links to places to purchase used and new (if available) copies of the title, with prices. I’ll also give a shout-out to my favorite bookstore meta-search engine, BookFinder.com, which lets you search both the online AND brick-and-mortar bookstores all at once. It also includes shipping cost estimates in the pricing so you have a realistic idea of how much you’d actually be paying for it.
Standard disclaimer, nobody’s compensating me in any way to say any of this. (Librarianship: it’s not just a job, it’s an obsession.)
-Your friendly non-neighborhood reference librarian
@51, yep, I was going to suggest them. The Deathstalker series is sword and sorcery IN SPAAAAACE! LOL
@Fernhunter: Cyrano de Bergerac was a real person (and science fiction author!). Can this column count historical figures, even if they got fictionalized?
If we start counting authors, don’t we need to put Zelazny and Brust and Anderson in here?
@88/glossaria
I am indebted to ILL for helping me find and read many treasures through the years. Back when I first started reading Clark Ashton Smith, the only way I could find some of his tales was through ILL. And of course Interlibrary Loan was a huge help in researching Harold Lamb. These days I most often use it to track down obscure hardboiled mysteries.
@85
Cerebus! I remember enjoying the first four collections quite well. Especially the Cerebus as Pope segment…
@87 jamesenge
Hey James!
I almost never think of Cugel as a swordsman, for obvious reasons, although he’s an important character in the history of sword-and-sorcery. It’s been a few years — can’t recall how much sword wielding he does. Maybe I underestimate him
In passing I mentioned Richard St. Vier (of Ellen Kushner’s Swordspoint and other novels and stories) — I think he’s worth a nod in this space. Perhaps (thankfully) not quite obscure enough. No magic in his sword (beyond his skill) … Swordspoint is often cited as a “fantasy without magic” though its sequels make it clear there is magic in that world.
@52 @84 I’m pretty well read in the heroic fiction genres, but I have to confess I’ve never read any of these. I’ve been told over the years that the first 4-6 books are kind of fun in a Burroughsian way if you can overlook some of the author’s digressions..
@howardandrewjones no. 95: Don’t waste your time.
The one about the slave girl starts, see, with this “girl” (woman) who shamelessly parades herself past (exists in the vicinity of) a man she just lives to tease (one of her college professors!) and mock with her refusal to let him do her (because again she is in college and he’s a teacher). She wakes up one morning to discover that she has been branded. And then she is swooped off to Gor, which exists in the same orbit as Earth but always on the other side of the Sun. And there she is systematically dehumanized until she just loves being subjected to sadistic mind games, which somehow always take longer than the sex, and treated like either an ornamental end table or a favorite pet the rest of the time.
Because there are no actual descriptions of penises or vulvas, this stuff was sold next to the latest Andre Norton on spinner racks instead of in the back with the rest of the porn. So I was much too young when I read it. It haunted me for years until stuff like this:
https://bellatrys.livejournal.com/tag/gor
dispelled the haunting with a belly laugh. Because the whole time he was writing this stuff, Norman was dragging around a huge hot-pink banner reading “Actually I am some variant of Not Straight and I hate women for being allowed to like penises and big muscly hairy hugs when I am afraid to let anybody else know that I do too.” And I would be sad thinking about Norman’s utter un-self-awareness (Penis. Shaped. Towers.), if Tarl Cabot and the rest of the jackasses on Gor weren’t a pack of leering smirking sexual bullies, and if the “girls” on Gor weren’t utter caricatures who only existed to be conquered.
Also, the swordplay is utterly unmemorable. The tarns are kinda cool though. (They’re giant birds of prey that you can ride. Or be flung across belly down if you’re a “girl,” of course.)
@83 Billreynolds We were going less for completely obscure and more for highlighting important and entertaining characters some readers might not have heard about, or have heard about but not in detail. As I said somewhere way up thread, I am sad when I give my thumbnail pitch of my new series to fantasy fans in their 20s and get kindly blank looks at mention of Roger Zelazny or Amber. And When I talk Brackett at conventions people don’t seem to remember at all. And that’s pretty shocking considering just how good she was
@97
Howard, I feel your pain. I remember Zelazny, and EE Smith, and Brackett, and ALL the Zelazny books. I had a learner recently; I asked her if she was familiar with Lord of the Rings and she responded “No, I keep meaning to watch that.” I showed great restraint when I pointed out that you don’t watch Lord of the Rings, you READ it.
And they won’t get off my lawn, either!
Dr. Thanatos @13 : With respect for a fellow fan, I’d argue Eric was not at the level of Corwin, let alone Benedict; he’d just convinced Corwin for a long time – centuries – that he was a better fighter than he was. In their first encounter in the books, Eric stays off at a safe distance and lets a mass of soldiers take Corwin down. One of the great moments in the original trilogy is the point where Corwin realizes, in the middle of a sword duel with him, that Eric has simply been psyching him out, and begins to turn the tables on him psychologically, taunting him about how he’s about to lose. As soon as he does, Eric panics and tries to escape the fight. (P.S. Hi there, fellow Amber and Zelazny nerds!)
Hardly forgotten, but while we’re discussing great fantasy swords(people) how about Stan Sakai’s Usagi Yojimbo, the greatest rabbit swordsman of all time?
@97 Hah! Yeah, I share your pain, and also your lawn concerns.
@99 I remember that scene well. I give the Vulcan salute to a fellow Amber fan (I named my shepherd/husky Corwin).
Usagi! I had a big collection of those at one time. Handed them off to a friend who has continued to read and collect the series. Fun stuff.
@96 Jenny, you make an excellent series of arguments for my continued absence of interest in this series.
Although tarns DO sound cool. I have winged allies/mounts in my own book. And also women central characters who are warriors. So far as I know I don’t have any weird subtext with my architectural descriptions..
Tiger himself says Del is a better swordslinger than he.
This is much newer, but the Malazan Book of the Fallen is FULL of swordsmen. If I’m going anywhere, let alone Dagorlad, I’m bringing the First of the Seguleh. Or at least Anomander Rake.
Tomoe Gozen? Never actually read the books but I know the legend. And her name is very cool.
Tomoe Gozen? Never actually read the books but I know the legend. And her name is very cool.
@96. Jenny: thank you for the link. It’ll lead to interesting reading down the line.
Roger Zelazny’s Amber series qualifies as FORGOTTEN? Oh, my. I’m even older than I’d realized, then. :-(
Flewddur Flamm or BUST!
@51/Bladrack — “I would vote for Owen Deathstalker and Hazel D’Arc from the Deathstalker series.”
@89/hypnoskills – -“The Deathstalker series is sword and sorcery IN SPAAAAACE!”
Fine picks! But are they really fantasy? They’re more science fiction (or science fantasy) in my book.
But Howard and I are turning our attention to THE TOP FIVE FORGOTTEN SWORD AND PLANET HEROES AND HEROINES next, so this is a great suggestion for THAT list.
@56/ecbatan — “I can’t speak for Howard, but as for me, you’ll have to defeat me in a sword battle (my champion will be Richard St. Vier, speaking of great sworsdmen!) to claim a pretzel from me.”
Thomas,
Good to see another familiar face wander over from the Black Gate forums!
And about time someone mentioned Ellen Kushner’s great swordsman. He’s featured in her classic (not Forgotten!) novels SWORDSPOINT and THE PRIVILEGE OF THE SWORD, plus some assorted short stories.
> “And Dunsany’s best sword is surely Sacnoth, wielded by Leothric.”
I’ll leave that to Howard — he’s the Dunsany expert!
@58/Dr. Thanatos — “Elric and Turin. Both had nasty black swords that came back to bite them in the end (but Turin came first, Moorcock…)”
Oh, come on. You literally cannot get LESS FORGOTTEN in the field of fantasy than Elric of Melnibone, and J.R.R. Tolkien’s Túrin Turambar.
(And did Turin really come first? Yes, Tolkien was writing Turin’s tales way back in 1917 or something, but were they PUBLISHED first? He first showed up in The Silmarillion, if I recall correctly.)
@59/PamAdams — “How about Judge Pursuivant and John Thunstone from Manly Wade Wellman’s work? That sword-cane did for a lot of occult creatures.”
Oooooh, that’s an interesting take. They certainly qualify as Forgotten, anyway.
But I think of them as Occult Detectives, rather than Swordsmen? And a swordCANE…. I dunno. Not a sword in my book.
@60/Potemkin78 — “As for a swordsman to take to Mordor, I’m going with the lone wolf himself, Ogami Itto. With baby cart, of course.”
Hats off to you, sir. An inspired choice!! The hero of the great LONE WOLF AND CUB would carve a great and bloody swath through the heart of Mordor, and no mistake!
@62/Keith Rose — “I guess Uther Doul probably isn’t “forgotten”, exactly, but he doesn’t seem to be mentioned so often anymore.”
I’m embarrassed to admit I had to turn to Google to remember who “Uther Doul” was (he’s the deadliest character in China Mieville’s THE SCAR.) I have not read it, so I cannot comment, but I’ve certainly heard him discussed as one of the deadliest characters to walk the halls of fantasy.
@111. Todd: “ecbatan… Thomas, Good to see another familiar face wander over from the Black Gate forums!”
Guess I got lost and confused somewhere… I thought ecbatan was Rich Horton.
@67/mndrew — “Might I humbly draw your attention to simply the greatest sword-wielder ever to breathe? Meowara Tomocato.”
Mark E. Rogers great SAMURAI CAT?? You are correct sir! A vital addition to the list, and I definitely want him in my Fellowship as we head to Mordor.
@68/GKBoyles — “Drizzt Do’Urden – most definitely who I would take into Mordor.”
Howard, I think we’re going to have to start keeping a list. THE TOP FIVE FANTASY CHARACTERS WE WANT AT OUR SIDE IN MORDOR. Drizzt Do’Urden definitely makes the list. Also, Samurai Cat.
I’m a little surprised no one has mentioned Karl Edward Wagner’s KANE yet. Not Forgotten enough, I guess. But he’d probably told my list in my Mordor Fellowship (or he would if he weren’t such a bastard, anyway.)
@70/Dholton — “But to go into Mordor, well there is no other choice but Groo The Wanderer. Groo would do what Groo does best!…Or did I err?”
Doh!! How could I forget Sergio Aragonés’s Groo?? For sheer, raw, staggering body count, I think Groo would outweigh just about everyone on the list (probably all of them put together!) That guy was a killing machine, and no mistake.
He’d make an excellent addition to our Fellowship. As long as no one is counting on him to navigate (or standing too close to him!)
@116/Sunspear — “I thought ecbatan was Rich Horton.”
Maybe? “Strange at Ecbatan” is Rich Horton’s website (and a great Michael Bishop story). Thomas Parker, film buff and Black Gate blogger, uses a similar name at Black Gate, which is why I assumed it was him. Sorry if I confused anyone (myself included!)
@glossaria(89):
Spinoffs? Steve is actively writing Vlad books. Just not very fast. (I had the chance to chat with him briefly when he was Principal Speaker at Philcon.)
@112/Todd
Turin’s full story was published first in the Silmarillion in the late 70’s but his first appearance was in the Fellowship of the Ring, when at the Council Elrond tells Frodo that he would have a place with the “great Elf-friends of old: Hurin, and Turin, and Beren himself.”(Why he left off his own grand-dad Tuor from this list is clearly a discussion for another time.)
Some argue that he also made an uncredited guest cameo in The Hobbit when Smaug is having an unpleasant dream in which a man with a sharp sword plays a role (and Turin is the only dude that ever took a sword to a dragon as far as we know, and did bump off Smaug’s ancestor Glaurung).
Ecbatan is indeed me, “Todd”! :)
(But I did wander over from Black Gate.)
—
Rich
P.S. Michael and I both got “And strange at Ecbatan the trees” from Archibald MacLeish’s amazing poem “You, Andrew Marvell”.
Kane is definitely one of the all-time great swordsmen. He’s also the one you should LEAST want to take into Mordor, at least unless you’re OK with replacing a Dark Lord supported by an army of Orcs with a Ginger Lord supported by an army of batrachian humanoids.
@124 Mighty Hoopman
Kane was awesome. And I definitely wouldn’t want him in my side, because he’s probably betray me. On the other hand I’d hate to have him on the OTHER side, either..
The secret to success is to find out which side Kane is on, and then make tracks to an entirely different continent. Or branch of reality.
@71/Leah F — “I wonder if Morrolan from the Vlad Taltos series qualifies? He’s the next one I think of, anyway.”
@88/glossaria — “Brust’s Morrolan– whom I’m not sure is obscure enough, since the Vlad Taltos books are not only still in print but spinoffs are still being written. (speaking of, I’d totally bring Vlad with me to Mordor…”
@121/Carl — “Spinoffs? Steve is actively writing Vlad books. Just not very fast.”
I love Morrolan e’Drien not just because he’s Lord of Castle Black and Court Wizard of the Dragaeran Empire, but also because he’s hosting a party in his floating castle that has been continuously going to 200+ years. Why can’t more Swordsmen have their priorities in the right place like that?
As for taking Vlad into Mordor… the more I think about it, the better it sounds. True, he’s not as formidable in battle as Morrolan. But the man knows how to assemble a team to get the job done. Powerful and loyal friends should count for something.
@73/AlanBrown — “I was planning to review the Ace anthology that collected the Jirel of Joiry tales in the Front Lines and Frontiers column about three weeks from now”
Excellent! Thanks for the head’s up. By the way, REALLY enjoying your column, and I especially liked your piece on Timothy Zahn’s COBRA a few months back. A man who writes about classic SF is a guy after my own heart.
@76/Skallagrimsen — “did anyone remember Bleys? He deserves a shout out too.”
OK, I didn’t. But I bet Howard does. Bleys is one of the Nine Princes in Amber, and they’re all pretty flashy with a sword.
“Did anyone mention Inigo Montoya? The Princess Bride, the novel, left me with impression that Inigo was a better swordsman than Westley/Dread Pirate Roberts (or anyone else).”
Nay! They have not! And while your claim that he is actually a better swordsman than the Dread Pirate Roberts is debatable, your claim that he deserves a place of honor on the list is not. Move aside all you pretenders! Make room for the great Inigo Montoya, one of the —
Wait a minute. Inigo isn’t forgotten. Not EVEN CLOSE. The guy is practically a household name (pretty damned impressive, since practically no one can correctly PRONOUNCE his name.) Disqualified!
Whoah I feel officially old now too. Outside of Lamb’s Khlit I thought all of these books were au courant (I’ve read some Lamb but nothing about the Cossack). Honestly, I’ve met fewer people who have read ERB than CL Moore or Leigh Brackett, let alone Zelazny or Stephenson (which, BTW, if Snow Crash counts, then surely the Warlord of Barsoom should be way up high in this list!).
@130. vin: John Carter is far more worthy than the previously mentioned Tarl Cabot. Although Carter’s fighting style is helped by the Martian gravity, hip-hopping around. And not sure he’s forgotten enough.
@76
Bleys is a great character and I would have loved to have seen more of him in the first series. He’s clearly a great swordsman… but he didn’t make it up Mount Kolvir. Maybe that was bad luck, but… maybe Corwin was better.
Kind of wish that, if we couldn’t have Corwin narrating the second series that we could have had Bleys. That would have been great.
The mention of sword canes reminds me of an old favorite character. As a kid I was fascinated by sword canes, and the fact that someone could carry something so lethal around with no one the wiser. And I first encountered a sword cane in the hand of Ham Brooks, one of Doc Savage’s five sidekicks. He was a great character, and made all the better by his constant bickering with Monk Mayfair, another of those sidekicks. Doc Savage isn’t fantasy, but his adventures certainly often had a fantastical element to them.
@todd McAulty(127)
Have you read the later books? Whited out spoilers follow:
So you think a guy who can literally summon a goddess to break him out of prison, manipulate the chaos that underlies the universe by sheer force of will, and carries a sword inspired by Stormbringer is not formidable enough?
If we’re going to mention Tarma and Kethry, shouldn’t Kethry’s granddaughter Kerowyn also be included? An excellent swordswoman in her own right, she also wielded Need after Kethry passed it on to her.
@122: Fram Frumgarson, Lord of the Eotheod, did kill the dragon Scatha, although it’s unclear if he did it with a sword or not.
@78/Robert — “Ronin from “The Sunset Warrior” books by Eric Van Lustbader.”
An excellent pick. Cruelly forgotten by modern readers. THE SUNSET WARRIOR was released in 1977, and has been out of print since 2003 (that sounds bad, but a 26-year print run is pretty spectacular, especially for a midlist fantasy novel!)
And Ronin, the finest swordsman of the Freehold, had some pretty rockin’ adventures across 20 years and 5 novels. He got pretty godlike in powers and capabilities by the end.
@80/Fernhunter — “How about Cyrano de Bergerac? According to Rostand, Cyrano was a traveler from the moon.”
@90/Carl — “Cyrano de Bergerac was a real person (and science fiction author!). Can this column count historical figures?”
I’m with Carl on this one. Rostand says he was from the moon, but that just makes him a science fiction swordsman, not a forgotten FANTASY swordsman.
He may be eligible for our upcoming SWORD & PLANET list though. Stay tuned,
@83/BillReynolds — “Except for the Lamb (and thank you for the recommendation) they ain’t obscure. Obscure is like John Jakes’ Brak the Barbarian before Jakes hit it big with historical novels.”
Hmmm. Beg to differ. We’re talking FORGOTTEN fantasy swordsmen, meaning folks who are largely ignored by modern readers, not OBSCURE fantasy swordsmen, which I guess would mean folks also largely ignored by history and the fan press.
Joril, Stark, Tarma and the rest all had their time in the sun. But that time has largely passed, and most are forgotten, or on the verge of it. That’s the reason Howard and I spend our time doing these kinds of articles, to be honest. To remind readers of the glories of older fantasy, and help keep a handful of these wonderful characters alive in our minds just a little longer.
@85/Carswell – “Cerebus the Aardvark.”
Hear! Hear! Finally someone mentions Cerebus!
Huge Cerebus fan here. For a while in the 80s, I considered Cerebus the Aardvark the greatest comic on the stands, and one of the greatest ongoing works of fantasy on the market. (And then his creator Dave Sim went nuts and starting writing anti-women screeds in his editorials and people abandoned the book in droves, including me).
But we’re talking about Cerebus here, not Sim. And Cerebus, originally created as a parody/pastiche of Marvel’s Conan, is one of the most brilliant creations in comics. Cunning, idiosyncratic, resourceful, and an unparalleled warrior. And also a great leader and clear-eyed observer of people.
Cerebus is, indeed, forgotten. Except by a few. By I’d choose him to be at my side on the plains of Mordor in a heartbeat.
@134/Carl again — “Have you read the later books? Whited out spoilers follow.”
Ah, no. No I haven’t. Though after having peeked at your spoiler, I think I might dash off and go do that. Right now. Back in two days.
How about the Elric of Melniboné series by Michael Moorcock.
This was one of the best examples of sword and sorcery
@105. princessroxana you beat me to it. Jessica Amanda Salmonson’s Tomoe Gozen was one of my favorite fantasy characters when I first got into SF/F–I didn’t realize the character was based on a real person until just a few years ago. I also really loved her story The Swordswoman which came out in the early 80s (and which is sadly out of print).
@135 Kerowyn feels more recent, even if Misty isn’t writing books from that period anymore.
Has no one mentioned Karl Edward Wagner’s Kane? Because if he remains unmentioned, he is truly a forgotten great swordsman of fantasy.
Let’s not forget Zelazny’s other casually brilliant swordsman — Yama-Dharma from Lord of Light. Like Benedict, a student of the sword across many human generations. I admit to a certain fondness for Rild, though — assassin, enlightened, martyr, and almost Yama’s match with a blade.
You mention Terry Pratchett and then fail to bring up Cohen the Barbarian
@71
I think his sword prowess is more due to the Great Weapon he wields, rather than personal skill—unlike his cousin (who of course also wields a Great Weapon, but was a fearsome duellist even without it).
just ordered the Birnbaum collection—thanks for the recommendation
Two forgotten swordspeople (one female, one male) -some will certainly say forgotten for a good reason- are Raven the Swordsmistress from a 5-book series by Robert Holdstock and Angus Wells writing as Richard Kirk, and Gardner F. Fox’s “barbarian swordsman” Kothar, also featured in 5 books.
Pulpy sword-and-sorcery series, nothing earthshaking but fun and entertaining – if you’re into that sub-genre.
Jenny @52, thank you for GORsplanation. I read a couple of those and was considerably depressed at how he treated women. Now I get a clue of what may have been going on.
As for Mordor, I’m taking two, Tiger and Del.
Thraxas and Makri or maybe Cohen the Barbarian.
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I have to nominate David Eddings’ Sparhawk for inclusion in this list. I’ll never forget the first description of him in “The Diamond Throne” that pointed out his nose had been broken at some time. It really drew a vivid picture and the character just got better from there.
Raven Swordmistres of Chaos by Richard Kirk (Robert Holdstock) with the covers by Chris (Achelios?) sorry don’t know how to spell his surname.
“Who am I, where am I, why do I feel this way?”
Kudos for that unexpected reference!
@153: Chris Achilleos – http://chrisachilleos.co.uk/
I would like to put forth two swordswomen – Shkai’ra Mek-Kermak’s-Kin and Megan Whitlock from ‘The Sharpest Edge’, by S.M. Stirling and Shirley Meyer. The series isn’t entirely PC, but this book was the first time I read about two women having an intimate relationship, and neither of them are killed off or die horribly because of it.
I’m sorry, you named your main character Khlit??!!
I hope the author gives a pronunciation guide and that it suggests “Kleet”.
That’s all I came here to say. Good day.
Jessica Amanda Salmonson’s Tomoe Gozen. The fact that no one has yet mentioned a series this good, firmly cements her place on the list.
@148
I tried the Kothar books multiple times, and thin though they are, I don’t think I ever got past the first book. There would be nifty moments and then moments where I couldn’t help but scratch my head at the plotting.
I think Fox was just phoning these in – I’ve read some of his historical fiction and have found it much more solidly constructed
@145
Oh, great point. Although oddly enough it is Rild I recall even better than the scenes w Yama!
@157
The Cossack fiction was written in 1917. And that vulgar slang term does not seem to have been in vogue at the time. It would be as though some popular character of today’s name were to become a term for a body partin 39 more years, and then suddenly no one could refer to that character without making a joke… instead of just enjoying the truly wonderful fiction…
@157: The character Khlit was conceived of by Harold Lamb, who died in 1962 at age 69. Howard Andrew Jones merely edited the story collections. He says (in comment #82) that he thinks “that the character predates the slang term”.
Howard is right; Lamb published the stories over a 10-year period from 1917 through 1926, while according to Merriam Webster the first known use of “clit” is from 1958, i.e. three full decades after the last story came out.
Also, being the name of a Cossack, the “kh” might stand for a so-called voiceless velar fricative if the common transliteration is applied. This sound is not present in modern English but for example in Scottish Gaelic (the “ch” in loch”) or Russian and Ukrainian which are two of the languages spoken by the historical Cossacks.
And even though it is a frequent use of amusement (a rather childish one, I dare add), it is not uncommon to have names in one language that sound like certain words in other languages (e.g. Immanuel Kant), which might not even the case as I’ve argued for in the previous paragraph.
@161: I was typing my comment when you posted yours, so sorry for the overlap.
Yes, language evolves and a mature person should be able to look past this, IMHO.
In times past one wished for the yuletide to be gay and might have hired a private dick. I understand that this might provoke a brief chuckle but it really shouldn’t stand in the way of enjoying older fiction.
@163
No apology necessary — I loved your own clarifications and responses and am grateful for them! I’ll remember your hardboiled detective analogy the next time this comes up because it’s a great parallel. And, alas, this kind of conversation WILL happen again.
@161 — Howard, speaking as someone whose first name, Richard, has a nickname that is indeed a slang term for an intimate body part … And having lived through my middle school years with plenty of other boys who were happy to have fun with that nickname (even though it’s not my nickname) … I get it, I really do!
What about Dray Prescot? The greatest swordsman of two worlds. By Alan Burt Akers aka Kenneth Bulmer.
Elric and Kane are not forgotten! They’re cool and influential characters, but not fodder for this article.
Also, JIREL! NOT JORIL!
Sorry.
The greatest swordsman that ever lived::: John Carter
and honorable mention for my man Dritz :)
@158 davebrzeski see 105 and 142. ;)
Two of my favorites have always been by Ellen Kushner: Swordspoint and Privilege of the Sword. The second one features a female protagonist – for me, a plus.
Khlit the Cossack is the only one in the article that strikes me as forgotten nowadays.
(And I agree he deserves widespread fame and popularity.)
I’ve been reading about sword-slingers since the early ’70s, so I can come up with a few great characters who, sadly, are about as obscure as Khlit nowadays.
The French bastard swordswoman Dark Agnes de Chastillon (Robert E. Howard)
The alt.African warrior woman Dossouye of Abomey (Charles R. Saunders)
The far-future construct Ganelon Silvermane (World’s End series, Lin Carter)
The redoubtable swordswoman Thorn (Frostflower and Thorn series, Phyllis Ann Karr)
The ancient-era wanderer Tros of Samothrace (Talbot Mundy)
Enjoy!
As far as Stark goes, this year we’ve released a 70th Anniversary Illustrated edition of the Planet Stories adventures of Stark, featuring all new covers that pay homage to the Allen Anderson originals plus a total of 33 illustrations [one for each chapter] done by Portuguese art duo StarTwo. Plus, we’ve put out a hardcover omnibus that contains nearly 100 pieces of concept art, character sketches, and unused pencils.
Look up “Illustrated Stark” on Amazon!
@45/Todd
In any discussion of top sword wielders I return to the Seventh Sword. A caste driven society with seven ranks in every profession and wandering swordsmen are police, judge, jury, and executioners by right of their sword skill. This causes all kinds of terrible problems, which is at least partly what the series is actually about.
I’ve followed this thread, watching and waiting. Finally, I saw mention of he who, to me, is the first and foremost: John Carter. Thank you, LCIII @168. Going into Mordor, I want the Warlord of Barsoom with me, thank you.
But my other quick thought was Samurai Cat, Miaowara Tomokato. He’d be my other top choice for companion.
Corwin of Amber and Groo the Wanderer round out the band of swords (anyone else notice that Corwin and Groo are a lot alike?).